Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello, everyone. I'm Mike Simmons, the founder of Astronomy for Equity. And welcome to the podcast. Today we have Mariana Povic, a Serbian Spanish astrophysicist who's a professor at the Space Science and Geospatial Institute in Ethiopia, as well as an associate researcher at an institute in Spain and an honorary lecturer at a university in Uganda. Mariana obtained her PhD in astrophysics in 2010 in Spain, and her main research interested is galaxy formation and evolution. But she's also worked on development in astronomy, science and education in Africa for more than 15 years, in Ethiopia, South Africa, Uganda, Rwanda, Tanzania, and other countries in a number of projects and initiatives related to research collaborations, education, institutional development, policy development, and women and girls in science. She's a leader in the IAU Division on Education, Outreach and Heritage and the African Astronomical Society, and the founder of the African Network of Women in Astronomy.
She's received a number of awards for scientific achievements and her contributions to society, in particular, for her work in Africa.
Mariana believes that through education, science and technology, we can combat poverty in the long term and make our world a better place for everyone in the future, regardless of where the children are born. Something I feel strongly as well. So welcome, Mariana, to this podcast.
[00:01:51] Speaker B: Thank you, Mike. It's really a pleasure to see you and to be here and also my thanks for starting this podcast, which I believe is very, very important.
[00:02:07] Speaker A: Oh, well, great. Thank you very much. And you know, we met when I was invited to Ethiopia to give a presentation, and I immediately realized that something about you stood out from the crowd. You don't seem to have been born in Africa, but clearly you have been in Africa for a long time. And this is really your focus. And that's really, I want to start with that, your background and how you came to be living and working in Africa, coming from Serbia, how did you end up here in Ethiopia?
[00:02:44] Speaker B: Yes, well, sometimes I wondered, sometimes I ask myself the same, you know, how I ended up. But really, Africa is my big, big passion. Since I was a child, every time I would hear something about Africa, it was really somehow it was not leaving me the same. So I think on one side, it's really the curiosity to over the continent, because I think that Africa is amazingly rich continent that offers us so much to learn about, to learn about the society, about life, because it has really an amazing diversity. And for me, the diversity is something that I really appreciate very much. You know, so diversity in all aspects when we speak about, you know, nature, flora, fauna, but then also when we speak about people know, and when we speak about different cultures, traditions, different ways of seeing, you know, the life, the world. And this is something that I really appreciate. So, you know, when I compare, like my professional life in a astronomy that we are, I think that you really have to have curiosity, you know, to explore the universe. That is amazing and so inspiring. Well, for me, African continent is a bit like a universe. No, it's like a book that you can read, read for life without really reaching the end and then learning so much about the life. So it's a bit, it's not a very, very far away comparison, you know, between the astronomy and work in Africa.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: That's really interesting because it's really true, the diversity. Of course, people think in the west, think of Africa as being sub Saharan Africa. I've been to North Africa many times is very different. They speak Arabic and French, Muslim countries, and even in east and West Africa, quite different. So, yeah, that's a really interesting way to look at it. And with my limited experience in Africa, several visits here and there, but a huge continent, you know, we think here about Africa often as being, well, the unfortunate circumstances. But, but when I visit and I'm working with people in Africa as well, I just see enormous potential. I mean, it's, it's so there may not be all the things that we would want to have there, but wow, the resources and especially the people, the diversity, it's just untapped.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: Yes, it is. It is really an amazing potential. And then that diversity, I mean, characterize the whole continent, but then each country itself as well. In Ethiopia, for example, where now I have been for more than eight years, we have more than 100 ethnic groups, more than 80 languages. And when you move from one part of the country, it really looks like you didn't. It doesn't look like you changed the region. It really looks like you totally changed the country because everything will be changing, you know, and it's, it's just amazing. It's really an amazing heritage that the country has.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: Well, we've talked about this before and this is the purpose of the podcast. And one of the reasons basically is the answer the question that we always get. Why astronomy? I mean, Ethiopia has gone through famine, wars, just all kinds of strife internally and externally. And you're doing astronomy. I mean, here's a, here's an example of that. So how is astronomy going to help the people there?
[00:06:31] Speaker B: Well, I. It's actually a topic that I could speak during hours and hours. It's really a question that is probably the most common question that I'm Getting why as an astronomer I'm working in Ethiopia, and then why Africa or Ethiopia or other African countries would invest in astronomy at all?
And what studying the universe and faraway galaxies have to do with improving the life of people.
So as you said, as you mentioned at the beginning in my biography, I started always repeating that last phrase that I really deeply believe that through education, science, technology, we can actually totally transform our society. I mean, it's not something that is my invention, it's something that is already very well known. But it's very important that we actually highlight that and stress that as often as possible, because not always it's actually obvious as it is. And I believe that still there is a lot of lack of awareness about it.
So education for me is really fundamental. It's a key tool for actually transforming our society. Education changed my life. So I can say that from my personal story, you know, growing, being born in old Yugoslavia, in the country that doesn't exist anymore, and then growing, you know, during all the Balkan wars. I was eight when the war started. I was almost 19 when the war was finished after the bombing. And then, you know, even when I entered the university, we were still, we told the recovery after 10 years of civil war. And it was terrible. It was very, very hard. And when you grow up under those kind of circumstances, you know, dreaming, you know, having a dream that one day you will become an astronomer and a scientist, it was like an impossible dream. No, however, I'm here, we are talking now, I'm professional astronomer, I'm transferring my knowledge to the others. And why I'm saying this? Well, because for me, really, as I said, education was a crucial, crucial tool to actually come out from the poverty and change my life and be able to actually fulfill my dreams. And we know that it's really a way to transform the society. And in the same line, we can speak about science, technology and then innovation. Because we know from the countries that are high income countries that investing in science, technology and innovation is what actually is giving the sustainable development in terms of social, economical, environmental development. And if in the countries that are low income countries, we only focus on those problems that are, you know, current crisis, definitely very important ones, and definitely those that need our attention. But if we don't really think in the long term as well, if we only focus on the short term problems, we will never be able to deal with those short term problems in a sustainable way. So investing in education, investing in science, investing in then technological development, innovation that comes with technology, science, and then also industrial Development is really fundamental, we know that. So coming to the astronomy, coming back to the astronomy, we know that astronomy, being a cutting edge science, is really leading science in bringing the knowledge. And every time we are talking more about switching from transiting from resource based economy to the knowledge based economy. So we need astronomy for that, for bringing actually the knowledge and skills in all different aspects. Then we know that it's a leading science for bringing strong technological development and innovation. Every time that we have a next generation telescope that is built, we are actually bringing a huge technological development and innovation, not only in terms of the fundamental research, but also in terms of the computer sciences, data sciences, optics, material sciences, renewable energies in many, many different fields that then are related with many other aspects of our daily life, then astronomy is also really fundamental for promoting education and for bringing better quality education. And since we are actually bringing skills that are really relevant, I mean, every time that we are training master PhD students, we are really bringing highly qualified people to the sector that they can then remain in astronomy or they can go to any other field. And actually I always like to say that for me at least, the universe is just like a laboratory. It's a tool. Astronomy can be seen as a tool. It is a science, it's amazing science that actually brings our mind, you know, it brings us constantly to the border of our knowledge. So it pushed the humankind to actually go constantly across our limits by improving technology, by improving the access to the data, innovating things and so on. So astronomy in that aspect is really very important science. Now if the countries that are low income countries do not really focus on, as I said previously, investing in the long term in the sciences like astronomy, other space sciences as well, well then we can ask the question if there will be development in terms of the technology innovation and then what will be the future? Now how we can actually the big question is how we can make the world to be a better place. And when I say to be a better place, I mean for all citizens of the world. And how we can. And to happen that for that to happen, we really have to make the world to be more equal, to bring more opportunities to everybody, to have less polarized world in terms of the, you know, economical status, political power that currently is very, very divided. We have those countries that are economically powerful, politically powerful, but then many other countries that are serving really, that don't have that kind of possibilities and that's a huge loss. I don't think that is benefiting really anyone. And also it's not a fair world in which we. At least it's not a world in which I want to live. And I'm sure that it's not the world in which most of the people want to want to live. So just having the fact that there are so many children, that millions and millions of children that we still have in the world, that all their life will be determined only by the place where they are born, not because they are not smart enough, not because they are not working hard, not because they are not trying as much as they can, and because they don't have dreams. It's just because they don't have the possibility to come out from the poverty. And that's terrible. That's very sad. That something that is a failure of each of us as a citizen of the world.
And it's something that in the future, I think we really have to change. And I believe that through education, through science, through bringing the skills is actually the way to change that.
[00:14:23] Speaker A: You and I think exactly alike in that regard, really. With astronomy for equity, I'm now focusing entirely on marginalized communities, marginalized because of where they happen to be, because of the politics, because of gender, because of some disability, like astronomy for the blind, all of these different things. And I've stopped referring to the people that we support as the underserved, because that describes those, for example, here in the United States who are definitely not getting fair treatment because they're in one area rather than another. But there are programs for them. But, you know, the vast majority of the world, the people you're talking about will never hear about these programs. They'll never have an opportunity to be involved in any of those. So I refer to them as the unserved, not underserved. They just. They've got nothing. And that. That's most of the world. So we definitely agree on that. Now, let's talk about astronomy in particular. This is in Toto Observatory just outside of Addis Ababa. I first heard about this from Solomon, who started the program before it was even built. And there were two of these, I think, and these are some astronomy students there. Now, one of the things that, of course, you pointed out very well, the educational programs that I've worked in with students in college level or in high school that are studying astronomy, interested in astronomy. They're not necessarily going into astronomy. They're, you know, the. The students that. That I've worked with in some programs are undergraduates or even graduates in related fields, but they're interested in astronomy, and it's the laboratory. So here Here is a laboratory that was built outside of Addis. And the students here is this. I think this was an early class.
[00:16:22] Speaker B: Yes, this is with one batch of the university students who came to visit the observatory. And before the COVID came this place, this Entoto observatory, that, as you said, is on the outskirts of the capital, about 10 kilometers out of Addis. It is really a place of inspiration for the young people. And when I came to Ethiopia and when I saw the potential of, as you said, not all of these people will be going to astronomy, not even to science, but, you know, they really get motivated and inspired to, like, continue their studies, to even go to fields that are similar. And before the COVID we were getting more than 10,000 visitors, so mainly secondary school students, university students visiting Addis. I mean, visiting entry. And now I know that when you go to developed countries saying, well, we have 10,000 students visiting our observatory. For many developed countries, that will be a small number for us. It's a huge number. And why is a huge number? Because reaching the observatory is not easy. First, it's not easy because of the lack of the facilities. So most of the schools that are in Addis actually cannot afford to organize the transport to go 10km and visit the observatory. So that's the first thing. The second thing is that many of the students, so that's only coming from Addis, but then many of the students out of these more than 10,000 that would be visiting every year are actually coming out of Addis. So I was every time impressed that you have students coming from northern part of Ethiopia, rural areas, that they will be traveling with the bus 2, 3 days to reach Addis so that they can go and visit the Entoto observatory. I mean, very often it's like even heartbreaking. Heartbreaking in terms of, you know, when you realize, you know, how much children, students get motivated, you know, they hear through the television, you know, the observatory is there, and it's been established, you know, in 2014, 15, and it's the only facility of that kind. And definitely, as I said, the facility that inspires many, many young people. And that is also one of the indicators of that is also the fact that only under the Ethiopian Space Science Society, that is actually not the professionals, there are professional astronomers, scientists that are members of the society and also that are in the management board. But then in principle, it's a civic society, and it's mainly run by young people, university students, young people, volunteers, all of them. And there are more than 15,000 members with more than 30 branches around all the Ethiopia, more than 100 science clubs that we managed to established during this last 10, 15 years. Actually this year it's 20 years since the Ethiopian Space Science Society was established. And it's just an amazing initiative. I mean it's initiative that for 20 years now is really inspiring children across Ethiopia, in small cities, in the capital, in remote rural areas, wherever that the volunteers go. And it's really again, it's really, I mean, where I saw the potential of astronomy for promoting education, for actually empowering, empowering community and empowering. I have so many examples of that how actually through astronomy we can in principle empower our society. And that's really true because every time that we go to remote rural areas where there are no any facilities and you start speaking about astronomy universe, you know, the attention of the children, the community will be totally there. And then even you start speaking how there is even research going on in Ethiopia. So that we do study, that we do publish, that we do train postgraduate students, that we have collaborations with other countries, and then that there is even a small observatory there. I mean people really get on one side inspired, on the other side also proud. And it's very, very positive for the community.
[00:21:07] Speaker A: That's, that's just amazing. These are great stories and very familiar to all of us. But you know, you, you grew up in difficult situations and you realize the potential of all this and that transfers to Ethiopia and the rest of Africa or any place around the world where education is not up to par, where the opportunities are not there. And when I visited Ethiopia and we went up to in Toto observatory, I asked why do you have it so close to the city? It's going to be really light polluted. And they said because it's more accessible. Even getting from addis up that 10 kilometers, there's six miles is kind of a big deal. And for most people and coming from other rural areas, it's amazing you have that too. I want to move on to something that's also of interest, but it's not just looking up into space, but actually having satellites in space. So this was an historic moment in Ethiopia's history.
[00:22:11] Speaker B: Yes, this was really an historical moment. So I moved to Ethiopia. I started collaborating with Ethiopia in 2015, but for one year I was a bit still between Ethiopia and Spain. And then I moved for good in 2016, only one month after the institute was established. At that time There were only three professional astronomers, including myself, in the country. And in 2019, only three years after the institute was established, Ethiopia Managed to launch the very first satellite. And that was really an historical moment, because at that time in 2019, I mean, Ethiopia was still, as it is still nowadays, one of the poorest countries in the world.
Now we are already above 120,000 people who live in Ethiopia. At that time it was a bit less. But, you know, bringing all these people out of the poverty is not an easy task and it will definitely take time. But then, you know, when I came already we were with, from the beginning, we were already with a state of emergency, with very hard political situation in the country, with so many problems that were going on. And then there was this vision, big vision among the community, also having the support from at that time, political, I mean, the decision makers, policymakers, that through science, including astronomy and space science, we can actually change Ethiopia. So that Ethiopia goes from low income countries into middle or even middle, I mean, first middle, low and then middle income countries. So when the first satellite was launched three years after, I was lucky to actually arrive in Ethiopia, when, as I said, the institute was just starting. So basically we started from zero, very small number of professionals. We started from zero with everything with institutional development, with human capacity development, training, the very first master PhD students that actually are professors at different universities across Ethiopia. Then starting with very first research and promoting research and science that there is some research going on now in Ethiopia as well, among the international community, working on, you know, putting Enthusia Observatory in operational mode with so many challenges that were there, and then trying also to work on all the policy development, strategy, development, making the very first Ethiopian space science and technology strategy, then roadmap and so on. So a lot of work. And then this satellite came three years after with my colleagues that were under the satellite technology department and development.
Of course, it would never happen without collaboration with other countries. So it was in close collaboration that the satellite was launched. So it was manufactured in China, it was designed in China, it was launched from China. But in any case, it was the very first time that there was a team of Ethiopian people who were trained during the process of all the development of the satellite, and then trained how to get the data, reduce the data, calibrate the data, and then use the data for different purposes. It was really an historical moment because it was three years of so many challenges, working day and night with so many things that we had to start, as I said, from zero. That is never easy. But then starting that in countries like Ethiopia that the needs are so big, it was also in a certain way, you know, for me, it was One of the, I have to say, one of the most exciting moments in my life, really, because being there at Entoto, seeing all of my colleagues, students, young ones, old ones, being so motivated, so excited about it, you know, it was really, really very, very amazing moment, you know, and especially when the pictures came from China, how the satellite was launched. It was really, really amazing.
[00:26:35] Speaker A: Amazing. Yeah. And here are some of, some of.
[00:26:37] Speaker B: Your colleagues, I think the colleagues that were there during the launching. I mean, as I said, the launching was in China. But you know, we went at 4 o'clock in the morning, we were going to Entoto. I mean, normally, you know, the road is not so safe going during the night. And then you could see, you know, 4:00 in the morning, still during the night, because the launching was at 6:00 in the morning, you know, a bit after 6. So at 4:00 in the morning, there were all the cars going to Entoto, you know, to see the launching of the satellite.
[00:27:11] Speaker A: And this, of course, has led to other things. These are the tools that we use. But this is some of your graduate students, PhD students in astronomy.
[00:27:24] Speaker B: Yes, the master here is in particular the picture with. Well, there are some PhD students, actually, you can see the second on the left on the top row. It's the very first woman to do her master and now PhD in Rwanda. So that's Beatrice. And then the rest are my master's students here in Ethiopia. And as I said, most of these students, they're already lecturers at some of the public universities in Ethiopia, which means that training these students is really important. Once they get their master or once they get their PhD in astronomy, it's not that they only learn about how the galaxies, the physics of galaxies. They actually, again, the galaxies are the tools that bring them so many high skills. So they learn many points of physics, mathematics, they get very strong computational skills, they get very strong skills, technical skills in managing different types of software, managing different types of data, images, spectra, interpreting data, going from high energies, gamma rays, x rays, all up to the low energies like in radio. And then also different, you know, managing big data sets, so developing different tools for manipulation of the big data sets, learning about how to write proposals, how to write research papers, how to, you know, to communicate the science as well. So all of these skills, once they finish their Master and PhD and they go back to their university, they can actually, now they actually work with hundreds of many other students. So what is the main, main role of this program is not only training these individual Students, for me, the main aim is that actually through these students we have a chance through astronomy, through bringing the high qualified people to the sector, we have a chance to improve the high education and the education in Ethiopia and then Africa in general. So my students come from many of them here in Ethiopia, but then also I support students and my colleagues in Rwanda, Uganda, Tanzania, Kenya, and now also Zambia, Botswana, South Africa. So as I said, through the postgraduate students, we are bringing skills going from primary, secondary school, then university as well. And that is really how you can actually bring better quality education. And with time we can really change the reality.
[00:30:08] Speaker A: And this is where it starts, isn't it? In this slide?
[00:30:11] Speaker B: Exactly. This is where it starts. It starts going to the remote rural areas. 80% of Ethiopia is rural. So 80% of Ethiopia, we are talking about children that now the access to the primary school improved a lot. But the secondary school for many children is still a challenge to finish the secondary school just because of the poverty, very often also because of different culture, tradition. But poverty is really the main problem that is bringing children out of the school. Now also the political situation instability is a huge problem because many children are out of the school because of the political instability and the conflicts that are going on across the country. But this is really where the needs are highest. When you go to remote rural areas every time, you know, we inspire children, but children also inspire us because. And this is where I can see the power of astronomy, the power of science to actually, as I said previously, empower the society, you know, and I will give the example. I mean, when, where we can see that the best is when we really work with the communities that are in the biggest needs. Like here, this is in the south of Ethiopia, in very, very remote area that when, when you go and you know, children living in poverty, but then they see you, they see that you are studying the planets and stars and galaxies that, you know, that very often they are actually much more connected with because they don't have power, they don't have electricity. They have the night sky that is amazing, that is beautiful. Very often they sleep above, you know, below that night sky they have the stars that are so close and you know, they can really dream about, you know, what the stars, galaxies really are and ask the questions. And then you come there and you say, well, this is the research that we are doing, you know, and you start speaking about astronomy and they really get so much excited. And one example that I similar to that that I very often like to give, where also I see clearly the importance of astronomy in empowering our community and then also promoting education. And how much education is important is from my experience working with street kids. You know, when you go to. In Ethiopia, we have many street kids. So children that are really living on the street, that's very common actually, across many African countries. Not all, but in many African countries, it's really common. And the first time that I got in touch with street Kids was 20 years ago when I went for my first volunteer work to Tanzania. Until then, I really didn't understand the concept of the street children and what actually all these children have to face.
So for the street children being on the street, living on the street, far away from their family, and actually quite far away from the rest of the society, because most of the society see them as a problem, the life on the street is very, very hard.
And many of these streets, these street kids, they leave totally the school. And once they leave the school, well, then directly their life opportunities will be limited as well. Not necessarily, but for many children, they will not. It will affect, of course, their life. So bringing back the children to school is not an easy task. And many organizations that I worked with, that their principal aim is to bring them back to school and then bring them back to the family or at least the relatives. It's really not an easy task. So when you start interacting with the street kids and you start speaking about universe, and you bring the pictures, you know, the book in astronomy where you can show them pictures about galaxies and planets, you know, their attention will be there. They start, you know, paying attention on what you are speaking about. And, you know, because they all have the same questions as well, where do we come from? You know, are we alone in the universe? What are the stars? How far away the stars are? You know, how everything started? And I mean, these are the questions that we all share. And that's the beauty of astronomy, how through astronomy, we can actually really very easily bring the interest of the people for education in science.
[00:35:00] Speaker A: Amazing. The kids on the street who are, you know, fascinated by this, it's not the first thing you think of with, with homeless kids, but it provides them some inspiration, something more outside of their own world. So astronomy does that for a lot of us. And I guess there's a greater need for that with a lot of others. And then here also, we've got another one. This shows some excited kids, but what is the situation here? You were visiting someplace else. Is this another remote area or what?
[00:35:34] Speaker B: Yes, this is very, very remote area. It's on the. Again, on the Southern part of Ethiopia. And there is a small place called Arba Minch. It's a very small city. And we went with our colleagues from Arba Minch University to visit some of the mountains where they wanted to start doing the site testing to see if in the future they can actually put the telescope there. So we went together with our colleagues from the university to that place. And first they said, well, it's not very nearby. But then we traveled actually more than three hours using just, you know, the ground road like Pista. And, you know, once you leave the city, the power is not there anymore. And you will go through one village and another and another and another. And then you come above 3,500 meters that are the villages that you can see here. And we reached the very small school. So the children came out. They got very excited because they don't have visitors normally. Nobody goes there really to visit them. So we started interacting with the children, with the teachers there as well. And then we had to still walk once we left the car, we still had to walk from this school, this place, for another hour to reach actually the site where to the top of the mountain. So all these kids, more than 100 kids came with us, you know, all to the top of the mountain, because they were so excited, you know, that there is something going on. And then hearing about, you know, a astronomy and that there might be a telescope in the future, that we were explaining what the telescope is. And so it was really, really an amazing moment, you know, where again, you can see one of those examples how wherever you go, you know, even if people never heard about astronomy, they still have the universe there. So it's very easy to explain what the astronomy is. No. And to once again inspire children. But, you know, that was also my own story as well, Mike. Because when I was growing in old Yugoslavia and when the war started, you know, it started, as I said, I was 8 years old. But then, you know, one year passed and another and another and another. And when you start hearing, you know, all the life around us became crazy. And, you know, hearing about violence, hearing on the daily basis, hearing about hatred and so on became our normality, you know. So for me, education was really, in a certain way, a mental salvation where through books, through education, through science classes, I was able to imagine another world. And then we had so many restrictions of power. So we had a number of nights. So most of the nights were beautiful because there was no power in all city. So you will get the dark sky and, you know, on the ground, everything Was. It was a crazy reality. And looking to the night sky was a place to dream, to dream about other reality, to dream about other, you know, other world that is, in a certain way, more normal. And to dream about, you know, it was, as I said, when you grew up in those kind of circumstances where the war extends for so many years and now it becomes our normality, it looks like it will never end. You know, you always keep a bit of the hope, but to keep that hope. Actually, that night sky was really helpful. No. And that's actually where I developed my curiosity about the universe, how far the stars are, you know, and they said, well, one day I will get those questions, answers on those questions. So I believe that, you know, the same as it was my story, you know, there are, you know, millions of other kids, you know, that they have their night sky, you know, or the sea somewhere there and look into the horizon or look into the night sky, into that infinity, you know, thinking about their dreams, you know, and how the life is gonna be in the future. No, and that's very important to have that kind of space. And, you know, the night sky that we have and the universe that we have opened that space even to dream, not only toward the space, but even to reflect about our own life and what the world really is.
[00:40:02] Speaker A: Yeah, this is something that we've lost. Many of us, because of the lights only in the last 100, 150 years don't have that connection with the sky anymore. But that is a common story. Less common now. I'm also. Astronomy for Equity has raised funds for telescopes for astronomy students in Ukraine, which is something that you clearly could identify with because they said, you know, our power goes out. And then even the city sky is really fantastic. And we need telescopes for this. And so. And I plan to visit there this year. Within the next few months, maybe. Maybe I could get you to go with me because you'll understand what these kids are going through.
[00:40:45] Speaker B: That's great. It's a great initiative, really, that you are doing.
[00:40:49] Speaker A: Yes, well, yeah, well, it's. It's. It's important to help where we can. Again, you know, those. Those who. Who are suffering the most get the most out of it. It's, in a way, from a business standpoint, it's the greatest return on investment because, you know, it's that they need it the most. And here's a. Here's a group. Now, this is a more formal education.
One of the programs that you are working, Ian, perhaps started.
[00:41:18] Speaker B: Yes. So this is the initiative that I Started with my colleagues from the Society of Ethiopian Women in Science and Technology.
So in Ethiopia, taking into account the statistics from United nations, from UNESCO, we know that out of all scientists that are there, only about 13% are women. So women in science here are really very rare. And when you come to the fundamental sciences like physics or for example, computer sciences, that number is even lower. So it's only about maybe 3, 4, 5%. And that means that many women are actually working quite alone at the universities in mainly, you know, men predominant in environment, which not necessarily is always easy. So the Society of Ethiopian Women in Science and Technology actually started under the Ministry of Science and Technology years back, before I came, a few years before I came here. Then I joined when I came. And then in 2019, I approached my colleagues and they said, let us start this initiative that, as I mentioned, is called the Stanford Girls in Ethiopia. And our aim was to go to the secondary schools and interact with the secondary school girls that are in the first two years of their secondary school. Because the first two years here will be like a general education. And then after, in the last two years, they will choose in which field to go. So we started going to the schools and the idea was to actually bring women from the society that are already professional scientists or engineers working in technology fields as well. So that on one side we can share our own story, how we became astronomers or, you know, doctors or physicists, chemists and so on. And then in the, you know, going through all different challenges and then also to promote our profession, also what really we are doing so that we can give more information to the girls. And that was really an eye opening experience. We learned a lot from the girls. We actually learned many, you know, we knew already what are the challenges that the girls are facing. But we actually learned also what are the main reasons that girls are not choosing stem. And at least in the city, the principal reasons were the lack of information. So the lack of information in terms of, for example, what are the job opportunities. So in terms of physics, for example, the common understanding is that if you study physics, you can only teach physics. No, you cannot have other sort of job later on. And then since the salaries of teachers are low, they don't want to go to teach physics. No. But then they don't have really, you know, the, the information that with physics you can do whatever you want. You can do and teach, you go and teach physics, but there is also medical physics, there is industrial physics, you can, you know, do the go to the engineering part as well. There are so many different aspects that you can actually apply the knowledge in physics, so that kind of information is not there. So our activities were really useful in that aspect. And actually what we started doing was when we go there, we ask, how many of you is planning to go to do science? No. And then we do the same question before we leave. And every time we will get significantly higher number of hands, you know, being raised, saying, well, now I might even consider going to the. Some of the STEM fields and doing science. So you can really see, even in the short term, you know, like, really changing the mindset, you know, that it's just. And then the, the main. Another very important problem is the lack of support. They don't really have the support from the family and they don't have support from the school as well to actually go and study stem. Go to the STEM fields again because of the lack of awareness. And the third very important point is the lack of role models. They don't see women, you know, being scientists or engineers. So then they don't even think it's possible. No. And when we go to the rural, remote areas, all of these problems and difficulties, challenges become even, even stronger.
[00:45:57] Speaker A: Yeah, this is, this is something that's an issue everywhere, including all but just a few of the developed countries. And it's still even us continuing problem there that is that there aren't role models for women in science fields, engineering and so on. And so it's always a battle, and it's true here too, for astronomy, that women are discouraged in a number of ways in the United States. And so there's a small number, but it's really a waste. You know, half of the people that are going to make a difference in your society are not allowed to participate. Everybody loses in something like that. And you can see the excitement here, the interest in these girls here. And just looking at the planets, the sun, things like that. Then finally, with a telescope, I mean, we, you know, we've talked about big telescopes and so on, but here, this is part of the same program. I think you're actually giving them a direct look at the.
[00:47:04] Speaker B: Yes, this is the part of the same program. This is one of the boardings. With one of the boarding schools. We interacted quite a lot with this boarding school. So here there is a concept of boarding school schools that are public schools, so totally free education. But so there are the boarding schools for girls and then for boys that are separate. So the girls will.
The girls and then boys as well. If they are going to these boarding schools, they will Leave their families and they will be spending the whole year in the school. So for these girls, I mean, and to go to the boarding school, you really have to have very high grades. So not everybody can go. So basically what the government is doing, and that's really an excellent program. It's really something to actually, you know, to try to strengthen because I find it as really a very, very strong model. They will be selecting the students that are really having a strong potential and talent. And in order to not lose these students because they come from the poor families, they will be offering them the opportunity to go to the boarding schools, which means that the children leave their families and they will have guarantee that they will finish the secondary school. And as I said, all the costs will be covered of accommodation, food, they have everything covered in the school. And especially for the girls, for the girls that are talented. In countries like Ethiopia, where all the household work is on the girls, you know, if the girls are living in the poverty and they have to take care of the brothers sisters, cook and so on, very often they will leave their education. And this is the way how you can actually prevent that, that the girls that are potential, that have potential, that are talented, that they actually finish their education and then even continue with the university. So what I wanted to mention is that with this school in particular, for example, after the first time that we went, that I think was in 2019, when we started STEM for Girls and we went with my colleagues, after the very first time, the girls got so motivated that they started the Science Club. When they started the Science Club, they started inviting us to go more and more. So we started going on the regular basis. And that's when we started even bringing the telescopes, like in one picture that you could, that you shown there. So it was their initiative to start the Science Club because they got inspired, you know, and in that Science Club, they were doing the activities, science activities on their own initiative. So it's really an amazing, you know, it's really another example where you can see that even one visit can actually change the trend among the girls.
[00:50:10] Speaker A: It's no question about that. I have talked to people who, many people who have said that looking through a telescope is what got them interested in the first place. Just that very casual connection. And that changes your view of the universe. It changes, it broadens your horizon and that's here. And where there are all the opportunities, it gets them to focus on science. But imagine in these areas in Ethiopia as well, and you have other initiatives like this as well.
[00:50:44] Speaker B: Yes, this is now similar as Stanford girls in Ethiopia. With all the experience that we got during few years interacting with the girls, as I said in Addis and around Addis, we wanted actually to extend the activities to the remote and rural areas. And in 2022, in 2021, I submitted a proposal to the Office of Astronomy for Development to actually use astronomy for empowering the girls and female teachers in the remote rural areas of Ethiopia. So what was the idea behind SciGirls? So the idea was to use astronomy, as I said, to empower the girls and to actually organize the strong capacity building training where we will speak about astronomy, space science, why astronomy is important for development, the space sciences as well, doing small research projects, giving them the opportunity to visit the institute, to visit and auto observation observatory, to visit the new science museum in Addis or the new library in Addis. And we brought 30 participants from, as I said, all were coming from the schools that are in remote rural areas across Ethiopia. Amara region, Benashangul, Gambela, Oromia, southern part. And so it was female teachers, science teachers coming with their female students. And we selected the students that were already interested for science and that have already good grades in science. And that was purposely done because what was the aim? The aim was to train these girls and teachers so that they become the advocates for STEM in their own communities. So when they go back to their remote rural areas, they will now promote, start promoting science, astronomy and STEM in general. But now for the first time, we have girls that are role models. The girls that are in rural areas promoting now science in their community to all other girls and other boys as well. And that was carried out in 2022 and during last year we actually followed that up a bit on the activities and we got amazing results. I mean, not all girls, you know, shown the same level of commitment to the community, but we got amazing examples with again science clubs that have been established, different talks that have been carried out, presentations that the students did even, you know, like artwork with selecting different related with astronomy with science and all of that in remote rural areas. Until the last moment, we didn't know. Actually, you know, for most of the participants, it was the very first time to come to Addis. Some of them had to travel 2, 3 days to reach Addis. Changing the public transport in some parts, you know, the roads were not, you know, the security is in question, so you cannot travel in any time of the day, so you have limited hours when you can travel, then you have to stay there and so on. And even so, you know, the Participants came to Addis. For them it was an amazing experience, like even just visiting the capital for the first time by having this chance, interacting for the first time with researchers, visiting, as I said, the institute. It was really, really inspiring. So we got an amazing feedback how actually through this training and again through astronomy, through science, we managed actually to empower, really to empower these girls and teachers. We had students and teachers who never saw the computer. So not even, you know, to work on the computer and touch computer, but even to, so the, to see the computer. So it was really an eye opening experience for the, for the girls teachers, but also for us. And last year I resubmitted the proposal again to now continue with cygrows project for the next three years. And this time, so this year we will be again doing the trainings. But this year we want to focus on the girls and teachers coming from the conflict affected areas because that's where currently the needs are the highest. And we will also use some of the girls that were very active from the previous participants to actually again attend the training and to now serve as the role models and to actually share their experience.
And as I said, it was really, really very, very, an important initiative that I'm very, very proud of because it really gave, with very, very small funds. It gave an amazing result.
[00:55:54] Speaker A: Yeah, and you mentioned it's so important if you want to spread education, you teach the teachers. This is how you amplify things. And you also do teacher training in astronomy, space, science and so on as an introduction to stem. Now I know these are teachers. Are these mostly science teachers or other types of teachers? And where do they come from?
[00:56:17] Speaker B: Yes, actually in this picture, this was a very special teacher's training. I will first mention this, then I will go to Nasse. So this was a very special teacher's training because. And it was part of the Stanford Girls in Ethiopia, the initiative that I mentioned that we were carrying out in Addis. So we wanted to actually approach the teachers and organize the workshop where we can discuss now with the teachers why is it important to have more girls in science. Because by the end of the day, these teachers are those who are with the kids day to day. And if they don't motivate the girls to do science and they don't promote that having more women in science is important for the society, you know, then still we will be having the same challenges. So it was really again a very, very important event. This was the first workshop. We wanted to continue with this workshop later on. Then Covid came Then the war came, and then all different challenges that came one after another in the last three years. So unfortunately we didn't continue. But I still keep in my mind that it's something very important to carry out. And then, as you said, teaching teachers is extremely important because through teachers, we can actually improve the quality of education for children and again inspire more children to do science. So since 2012, I started collaborating with NASA. NASA is standing for Network for Astronomy School Education. It's one of the working groups under the International Astronomical Union. And it started in 2009 during the International Year of Astronomy by two of my colleagues, Rosa Maria Ross from Spain, and then Beatriz Garcia from Argentina. NASA is all about teaching teachers, and on one side, teaching teachers astronomy, but then teaching teachers the methodology, how to teach astronomy or any other science through practice. So basically, most of the NASA is really practical work. So what we do is we use recycled materials, like really recycled materials, and then very cheap materials, like paper, things that we have, you know, in our easily, that we can find in, in our households. And then we perform different experiments. We make the experiments to show different laws in physics and in astronomy. So what do I mean by that? Well, you can make the craters by using the wheat flour and let's say the cacao powder. So two different. So you just need two different powders of the different color. And then spoon and you can show to the teachers and then kids later on how the craters on the moon will be created. You can measure the luminosity of the sun by using a simple lamp and by using one piece of paper with one drop of oil. You can, for example, make a small spectrometer where you will just have a piece of paper. With the model of the spectrometer, we will use the scissors, cut that, make a small box, put a small piece of CD that will be basically a dispersive element. And you can show what the spectrum, how the spectrum will be created and what the spectrum is. And then you can, you know, you can explain what is the wavelength, what are the colors, and so on and so on. You know, so there are. You can explain the colors of the stars, for example, by using different filters, color filters, and then just a small, you know, lamp. Or you can explain the scattering of light by using one glass of water and one small drop of milk. So I'm just giving few examples, but all of the experiments work like that, you know, so there are like different workshops that are already very well defined, all the experiments very well defined. And this is what we are promoting again the effect is amazing. I mean, we did actually NASA in general. My colleagues did now more than 400 workshops across the world since 2009. In my case, I mainly focused on East African countries. So we did different workshops across Ethiopia, but then also in Uganda, in Tanzania, in Zambia, in Kenya, in Ghana.
And the results, as I said, have been really, really amazing. Every time we go, we interact with the teachers. The teachers really appreciate it because they can see now that with simple things, even if they don't have a physician, physics lab or science lab in their school, with simple things, they can actually bring science to the. To the children.
[01:01:14] Speaker A: Yeah, and all of these things have analogs on Earth as well. If you're talking about the spectrum of stars, you also can talk about spectrum not only of our own star, the sun, but of the different types of lights we have, whether it's fluorescent, incandescent, now led, and things like that. So these things have a lot to do, have everything to do with our daily lives. It's not just about the things out in space. But then you've also mentioned here, and I wanted to talk a bit about that as well, the African Network of Women in Astronomy. This is relatively new. Afas, down below there stands for the African Astronomical Society. So this is something that is now continent wide.
[01:01:59] Speaker B: Exactly, yes. So again, in the same line, you know, being a bit touched that we really don't have many women in science, and then in Africa, even less. But it really depends on the country. There are countries like Algeria where the number of female scientists is 50%, you know, so it really. But then there are countries like Chad where the number of female scientists is only. So it really varies a lot between the countries. So it's. We cannot like, generalize. No, but in 2020, when I got the Nature Research Award for Inspiring Science, and that had some economical part as well. Well, I decided on one side half of the data war, to dedicate on girls and women in science here in Ethiopia, with all different initiatives that I mentioned. And then another half, I wanted to focus on starting this initiative, the African Network of Women in Astronomy. So I approached five of my colleagues. Carolina Odman in South Africa, Vanessa McBride, also in South Africa, my colleague and friend, Priscilla Muhieke from Uganda, and then Nana from Ghana, and then Somayya Saad from Egypt. So together, Salma Sylvia joined us from Senegal two years later. So with all of these amazing women, we came together and we agreed to start this network with the aim to actually bring the women. So to not repeat a bit the mistakes that Were there with development of astronomy and science in Europe, in Northern America as well in Asia, where first it was started by men, and then women started coming, you know, later on. So now astronomy is the emerging science on the continent. And we want actually that women play an active role in that development of astronomy and science from the beginning, you know, so that we can really bring women together, that we can, you know, see what are the challenges, difficulties, that we can inspire each other and that we can also offer the support to the young girls that are just starting their MSc, PhD and so on, and in a certain way to, you know, to bring the network that we can say, well, the women are there also. They can play an important role in any different leaderships, organization of meetings, committee works and so on. That very often we hear, well, there are no women, because they are not there. No, well, there are women.
So we then approached the African Network, the African Astronomical Society that was establishing in the similar time. So we agreed to bring AFNWA under the umbrella of afas. So AFNWA became one of the committees and it officially was launched in January 2021. And since then, I have to say that AFNWA became a very active network. We now have more than 150 members. That is really significant. Take into account that still, you know, the astronomy community is small. And then in particular, when we come to women, more than 80% are actually young researchers, so master's students, PhD students, which really means that AFNWA is timing so that we can really give support to these young people that, you know, they remain in science, that they can, you know, start getting into the professional networks as well. We are not gender exclusive, so we are welcoming all people to become members independently on their gender in identity. So our activities are focused on girls and on women, but we have about 20% of members that are men, which is extremely important because we will never, you know, having a small number of women in science, it's not a question of women, it's a question of all society. We started many initiatives, you know, doing different online trainings, then organizing sessions regarding women in science and different international conferences, giving the talks about women in science and about DAPHNA so that we can give more visibility to the initiative. Starting the very first awards for women in astronomy in Africa. And here you can see the picture. So this is the very first year, this is three years ago when we were giving the very first, two very first awards for the senior women in astronomy in Africa. So you can see Rene there, the fourth one from left, who got the senior award, Rene is working in South Africa. And then the Early Career work award in that year went to Marie Korska from Burkina Faso. So that was really one of the important initiatives that now is going for three consecutive years. We also last year started an initiative to collect different videos from students, professional astronomers. So we launched two outreach videos that are now shown in schools where we can use these videos to actually again inspire girls in schools to do science.
Then this year we launched the call for giving us small grants. It's really like seed grants to promote activities across Africa with girls that live in challenging conditions. So that means girls that are living in remote rural areas, townships and slums, in conflict affected areas, refugee camps, internally displaced camps for internally displaced people, minor age girls. So whatever activities that are focused on those groups across the Africa, we were giving the small grants. So we will be granting 13 projects across the continent. And it was really impressive. We got 30 proposals with all different initiatives. And one of the aims was really to inspire people to do more activities in their communities. The important activity for this year is also making. We are now working on that, preparing the very first book about women in astronomy in Africa. And here you can see the, let's say, the promotion picture that, that we prepared to collect the stories. And this is something that we want to finish before the General assembly. The, the very first IAU General assembly that will be held in Africa in the history, in the last 100 years of the International Astronomical Union. We are very excited about that and we want this book to be ready for the General assembly so that we can actually show the book during the General assembly and then also that the book becomes accessible before that and then during the assembly.
[01:09:06] Speaker A: Just amazing work, Mariana.
I wish I'd had more time to learn more about all the things you're doing yourself during that quick visit to Ethiopia. I know we'll get a chance to talk at the African Astronomical Society Conference meeting here in just a few weeks, and I look forward to that. But so many different initiatives, all of which are based on astronomy, but the outcome is not to make astronomers, it's to get people inspired, especially women, because there's underutilization of resources there. But everybody needs to have a chance and it's an inspiration for everybody. Your work is an inspiration as well. I know that so many girls are going to be looking up to you and saying, wow, this she isn't just an astronomer, she's doing amazing things to change the world. From your background, I'm sure was important and everything else. So, Mariana, thank you so much for joining us and describing everything that you have going on in Ethiopia and across Africa. And all of these things hopefully will spread to other countries and the whole world. So thank you so much for joining us today.
[01:10:27] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you, Mike. Actually, it's me who has to give the thanks to you. And I mean, as I said, having this podcast is really important because if we don't give the visibility to what really the potential of astronomy as, you know, and many other fields of science. I really don't think that, you know, that every science is really very important and can play a very, very unique role in our lives and in the society. But definitely if we don't have these kind of tools that we can actually speak more about it, then we will not really bring the visibility and awareness among the community, which is extremely important, you know, and you know, also what is very important, what I really appreciate is the invitation that you want to give more visibility to also the work that we are doing in Africa because very often, you know, there are so many negative things coming very often from African, African countries, but there are actually so many amazing positive things that are going on, happening that all of us can learn a lot and very inspiring. I mean, you said myself, I'm inspiring other people and that might be true, but I can guarantee to you that actually who is inspiring me are all of these children, students, teachers, community in general, that I've been interacting the daily basis because really it's a vicious circle. We inspire and then we get inspired, inspired. And that vicious circle is really important to be there so that we can, you know, keep the long term vision and to keep, you know, motivated. Because that long term vision, if you don't have it, it's very hard, very easy to get demotivated because of course the challenges are there, the problems are there. Whatever that we do in life and when we are, you know, in the, in the, in the societies, communities where the challenges are, you know, abundant, we can learn a lot from those challenges. But also, you know, keeping the motivation and not losing it is very important, you know, so I have to say that I'm, you know, I will be grateful for life, you know, until the end of my life, for really the inspiration that I got from all the children, students, people that I actually interacted with through science. Thanks to science. No, and thanks to the education.
As I said, education really changed my life and, and I really believe that through it we can really change other lives. So it became a responsibility, you know.
[01:13:08] Speaker A: To actually share the knowledge, you're using even the same words that I use for the things that I do. The.
When people say, well, I've inspired them to do something, they're the ones that inspire me. Because if they say, well, this made a difference, then I feel like it's not only worthwhile, but it's an obligation, something if I can make that difference, and I make that difference. And this podcast is nothing more than using the experience that I have, knowing people around the world with amazing stories and giving them a place to tell the story. This is.
It's. It's easy compared to doing the work. And, you know, you talk about the children as inspiration.
Well, before we end, let's talk about this curtain you have behind you.
I knew as soon as I saw that this is children's hand. Handprints.
[01:13:59] Speaker B: Yes, yes, you're right. And there are more than 60 hands that are there. You cannot see the full curtain there. But actually, this curtain is very, very important to me. It was made 20 years ago when I made my very first travel to Tanzania. It was my first travel to the African continent. It was Kenya and then Tanzania as well. I spent three months with my volunteer work working in three children's homes and then with street kids as well. And this was at the end of my stay in one of the children homes, where the children, to say goodbye, they made this curtain with their hands, you know, putting their name beside their hand. And as I said, I mean, the names because of 20 years, you know, the names vanished, but the hands are still there. And every time I move from one country to another, I actually take it with me. No, because, you know, it is so symbolic for me in so many sense. I mean, that very first visit to Tanzania really somehow, you know, opened, you know, all that I had in my heart for my first 20 years of life. You know, it became true that really where I want to dedicate significant part of my life with my work time is really in Africa. So the passion that I had really, somehow I saw that it's not just a foolish thing.
[01:15:34] Speaker A: This is terrific. And it's a perfect place to end, too, because that inspiration has stayed with you for these 20 years, physically stayed with you for 20 years, and it keeps you going, and that's what's important. So these children, well, they're the future. But, you know, they inspire us to do what we do. So thank you again, and we'll continue to work together and talk to you soon.
[01:16:01] Speaker B: Yes, thank you. Thank you so much.
