Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Big Impact Astronomy, where we explore stories of how the stars are changing lives and connecting communities around the world. From stargazing under war torn skies to bringing science education to isolated communities, we uncover the incredible impact of astronomy beyond the observatory.
This episode of Big Impact Astronomy is brought to you by Primalucha Labs. Prima Lucha Labs makes space exploration accessible for all and empowers communities worldwide through innovative educational astronomy solutions.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Welcome, everyone. I'm Mike Simmons, the founder of Astronomy for Equity, and welcome to the podcast. This time we have Joyful Midlo from South Africa. Joyful has a PhD in physics from the University of Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South South Africa.
She's a member of the Golden Key International Honor Society, an alumna of the Black Women in Science, where she's currently serving on the steering committee. She's also the secretary for the executive committee of Women in Physics in South Africa. Joyful is passionate about science communication and community outreach through volunteering her time in outreach programs. She's currently on the staff of the International Astronomical Union's Office of Astronomy for Development in Cape Town, South Africa, where she works on the Astronomy for Mental Health flagship and is starting to work on some other things as well that we'll talk about. So Joyful believes that life is too short to be anything but Joyful. So you should smile as often as you can. And I can tell you that she lives by that credo because she is pretty much smiling all the time. So welcome, Joyful, and thank you for being on the podcast.
[00:01:56] Speaker C: Hi, Mike. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: It's a pleasure. It's a joy, I should say.
And let me ask you about your name. I know that in African cultures there are some wonderful names where the, the, the name is rather than a thing, it's really an adjective like this. So Joyful. And this is what everybody calls you is Joyful, or do you get called Joy as well?
[00:02:29] Speaker C: So, first of all, I was named Joyful because my mother was extremely happy when she gave birth to me. I am the fourth child out of five and I'm the only girl. So after having three sons, she was just overflowed with so much joy, she just had to name me Joyful.
But yeah, so my whole family actually calls me Joy. I don't think they know that my full name is Joyful. Only when I got to university did I start telling people and introducing myself as Joyful, only to have people call me Joy five seconds later. So I will continue telling people I am Joyful, but some people just tend to Just call me Joy after that.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: Joy is easier. I could fall into that trap. But knowing that you prefer Joyful, I will endeavor to use your full name of Joyful. So.
[00:03:17] Speaker C: Oh, thank you very much.
[00:03:20] Speaker B: So you have a PhD in physics, and you've been in different areas of physics, and then you went into astronomy here. It's not that unusual to go into astronomy, but this is an unusual aspect of it. So how did you end up in astronomy here? What was your path?
[00:03:38] Speaker C: So I started my masters in material physics. I was studying the properties of diamond. And then when I moved on to my PhD, I actually did two research projects in my PhD. The first one, I had to let it go because of a pandemic and things not going according to the timeline. So I ended up doing analysis for the data that was taken with the ALICE detector, which is part of the Large Hadron Collider at cern. And then after that, I was like, I need a change in environment. Academia got a bit too much for me after being 13 years years as a student. So I was looking for something different to do. But while I was sitting at home, I couldn't just sit and do nothing. So I came across this ad that has astronomy for mental health. So I've been an advocate for mental health for like, a very long time. So when I saw that, I thought that was very interesting. But then I also saw astronomy in the same sentence. I was very curious on how do you mix astronomy with mental health? And I just, I reached out to the OED and wanted to find out more about the project. And that's how I found myself at the office, Office of Astronomy for Development.
Also, I think while after I joined the oed, I realized that there's a whole new path that one can follow with the sciences that doesn't necessarily involve research. And I think that is something that I've always been gravitating towards because, like you mentioned, I'm big on outreach and community engagement. So I think that's something that I've always been passionate about. And joining the OED has sort of kind of allowed me to explore other ways in which one can use the sciences first.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: I can say that as far as mental health, in your interest in that having you in the room has got to be good therapy for everybody who's feeling down.
You know, it's. Joyful is the perfect name for you. But one other thing that's interesting is that you were studying the properties of diamonds. Now, that's not a common thing in material sciences in the Western world, but there's a very good reason for that in South Africa. So tell us, tell us about the background of diamonds there.
[00:05:45] Speaker C: Oh, gosh, that is so long ago.
[00:05:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Well, okay. Not okay. So I'm not asking about diamonds themselves, but culturally or economically, diamonds are a very important thing in South Africa.
[00:06:00] Speaker C: Yes, yes. I feel, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that the queen diamonds, crown jewels were found here. We're mined here in South Africa. So we do have an interesting history in diamonds itself. But unfortunately for me, I was just working with synthetic diamond. So I was a little disappointed when they showed me this little thin film and they told me that was diamond. I was like, really? This is not what I had in mind.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: Not something to make jewelry out of.
[00:06:28] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: So the Office of Astronomy for Development. Let's talk about that a little bit. It's something I know very well because I've known the people there for a long time and the work is amazing. Now, this very cluttered map that you're sitting in front of right now, does this have something to do with the work of oad?
[00:06:49] Speaker C: Yes. You probably know more about the way you than I do, but I will try to tell you as much as I can. So this map behind me, the side, this is where we are in Cape Town, but basically it has different parts of the world where we've funded projects. So we have an annual call for proposals and every year projects are selected all over the world that have activities that have to do with astronomy as well as addressing some sort of sustainable development goals. So to date, we've basically funded over 200 projects in over 100 plus countries all over the world. And just the other week I was actually updating the project that will be funded for 2024. We have roughly 18 of those that will be funded this year. So, yeah, that's basically the main thing that we do at the OED is the call for proposals. And then we have additional projects that add on to that.
[00:07:44] Speaker B: And this is over 10 years now. The history of the OAD. I was in Cape Town for the first stakeholders meeting, which was wonderful. People from all over the world. And I've been thrilled to see that the, the work of the OAD in Astronomy for Development, which is not something that most people would think about, but can you say a little bit about why you think Astronomy for development? How are the diff. What are the different ways in which astronomy is used there? And I understand you're a fellow, you've been there for eight months, so you don't know the whole history of everything behind it. What have you seen since you were there about the importance of using astronomy for development of societies, communities and so on?
[00:08:32] Speaker C: Until recently, like this year when we're on board in the 2024 projects, I didn't actually fully comprehend how much the OED does. But so two weeks back we had 2023 projects give presentations of the work they were doing and I was actually mind blown by how much work people like volunteer in order for them to do this project. You have people who are doing outreach activities for young girls and you also. There was also one project I heard where they were visiting prisoners in Nigeria where they were equipping them with skills so that when they leave prison they can basically integrate properly into society. So it was, it was, it was actually mind blowing to fully comprehend what these projects mean and then also to see the ones that will be conducted this year as well. They have amazing projects. I don't know how they come up with these ideas, but it's quite interesting to see how they can look at the community and assess the needs that they need and then say, okay, through astronomy, I'm going to bring this into the community in order for them to either encourage more young girls to do STEM related careers or maybe create jobs for them through astrotourism. Astrotourism has become a a new trend in tourism nowadays. Or they even just have skills development training for people where they learn how to either code or they create in sensors. I think there was a project on Internet of Things as well. So they've just got really amazing projects and it's impressive that people just sit down and evaluate and assess the needs of the communities and then find a way to implement this through astronomy.
[00:10:16] Speaker B: Yeah, it is amazing. This is great that you're seeing this because this is the purpose of this podcast is to show people all the ways in which you wouldn't believe astronomy is being used around the world. And you mentioned that. I know OAD in the work and I do know a lot of these things. This is why I wanted to start this podcast, to share these things. But let me ask you briefly though, why astronomy? When people think about, well, we want to get more people into stem, science, technology, engineering and mathematics. They don't necessarily think of astronomy as doing that. So why would people choose to use astronomy for these projects?
[00:10:55] Speaker C: Astronomy is a very inspirational field. So me coming from a background that has nothing to do with astronomy, I mean, until I joined the oed, the most I knew about astronomy were the planets.
But I joined the oed. And I think my first week here, they. We had a trip that we went to Sutherland in the Northern Cape, where the South African Large Telescope is located. And for the first time, I got to stargaze at a dark sky. I mean, a dark sky area. And I saw the most beautiful night sky. I actually saw the Milky Way. It was the first time I saw the Milky Way, which was not on a photograph, but just looking up in the night sky. I felt at peace. And it was just a good place to start different conversations because we said there is a group and we had different conversations about different things. It was just a gate, like you can use astronomy as a gateway to having different discussions about different things. It's an inspirational science basically, on top of everything else, it's just inspirational.
[00:11:54] Speaker B: That's something that people who have not seen the Milky Way, which unfortunately is a very large proportion of the population around the world these days, as everybody lives in cities, don't really understand. I mean, the picture behind me here is taken at my home. I'm not actually sitting in the yard. It's daytime here right now. But this is a friend from China. Jeff Dye took this image while he was visiting.
And it's something that we see in the cameras and the photographs, but don't realize what's really out there. Unfortunately, we've lost connection with that. But also now you're talking about South African Astronomical Observatory was one of the major observatories in the world. But in other places where you have been or have lived in South Africa and in other countries. The other thing is that if you want to get people into science and technology and so on, you don't have the laboratories in, in the schools and science and science teachers and all of that. You mentioned a couple of the examples of programs, projects that are being funded. Can you think of some examples where astronomy is really. It's not just inspirational, but it's really kind of the only choice because there are a lot of projects like that.
[00:13:15] Speaker C: I mean, if I think from where I come from at home, all of the schools, they. They don't have any physics labs or any chemistry labs. So their understanding of science is basically what the textbook tells them. So when you look at astronomy, I mean, it's the easiest thing you can relate to sciences in terms of just them looking up at the night sky and they see the stars and then they start questioning things like the stars, are they really stars? Are they planets? How far away are the stars? So astronomy is the most accessible one, I would say, in Terms of bringing it to the people without having to move a lot of equipment in order for them to engage with the science itself. I mean, with just stargazing you can help spark a lot of curiosity out of people in comparison to trying to get them to understand. For example, let's say the Large Hadron Collider, I mean it's a big accelerator underground in Switzerland. So that would also still require a lot of imagination from them in terms of understanding in the scale at which, at what amazing science they're doing. So the stratum, it's more accessible in terms of everyone lives under the same night sky. So anyone can look up at any time and sort of kind of like understand when someone says we study stars for this reason or we study planets and moons and everything for this reason, they can easily relate to that as compared to any other science. So I think astronomy would be the gateway to inspiring people to follow the sciences field.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: And also when you talk about the Large Hadron Collider and high energy physics and so on, not everybody has access to that. Most people aren't going to have a chance to do something like that. It's just something outside of their area. But when you look up in the sky and you look at many of the objects, you are doing high energy physics. I mean when you're trying to understand these things, it's going on up there all the time. So it is maybe more accessible way for people to get interested in that. High energy physics, other types of physics. It involves technology, engineering, mathematics, all of these things are touched by astronomy. So it is a way to introduce the different sciences. Astrobiology, so many different things that we don't think of.
[00:15:40] Speaker C: Yeah, I think at the OED we actually have this circle that has the different fields in which astronomy can be linked to. So the first one is the data science where you would have your data sciences and and then we also have the sciences where you have your physics, your mathematics and your chemistry and then you'd have your culture part of it. I think we tend to forget that culture is also very linked to astronomy as well. Because I mean with philosophy, the debate around how the world started and all of those things, this is all linked to astronomy as well. So astronomy is basically linked to many different fields. It's just a matter of having someone explain these linkages between all of these various fields. But yeah, it plays a key role in various fields within society.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: There's a lot of great work that's done by OAD and the impact has been tremendous with all Those aside from being able to put post its all over the map like that, which is pretty impressive actually.
But let me bring up something on the website here that I think really is important to show. And there it is. So here we are looking at the impact. This is from the Office of Astronomy for Development website, Astronomy for a Better World. And this is all the proposals, the calls for proposals, the projects. A, an interactive map here that's not as interesting as the post its, but shows all the proposals there.
Yeah, targeted. So this is interesting too. And you see South Africa, of course, and India and Brazil and some others in South Africa.
And you need to tell me which. This is Nigeria here, isn't it?
[00:17:37] Speaker C: I believe so. Nigeria has had a lot of projects funded by the oad.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And I've worked with people in Nigeria on some projects too. And this is really interesting too. You mentioned some things about gender equity and you know, here we can see these are the projects that have been funded. And the green area, such as here in Canada, in the US are 100% non male projects on the average. And so you can see there's quite a bit around the world in.
Well, these aren't 100%, but these are, you know, over 50%, 50% or more in Mongolia, Pakistan, Nigeria, places where it's very helpful. Indonesia. So that's a very important aspect. Over a million euros that have been awarded and you can see where most of the money has gone. Sub Saharan Africa, in particular, Central and South Asia, Latin America, in the Caribbean, so. And the sustainable goals of the United Nations. So these are important aspects of this that I think are really good to be able to see.
So your own work, what will you be doing in the future? You're, you're trying to meld a couple of the different flagship projects, as I understand. Tell us about that.
[00:19:12] Speaker C: Yeah, so last year when I joined the oed, like I mentioned, it was for the Astronomy for Mental Health flagship. So obviously for my own personal reasons, I was more curious on how they can help. How can astronomy help my mental health? But after spending a couple of months with the oed, I realized that, look, they're doing great work and they're doing amazing work, but because obviously we had Dominic who's already working on the mental health project, it was not something where we can have multiple people being just fully immersed in the actual project itself. So starting this year I will, I mean, I've been working on the socioeconomic development through astronomy and trying to see how we can combine it with astronomy for mental health to Basically help and guide people in terms of how can they start their own either small businesses or small as a tourism business that incorporate mental health activities into a whole project. So we're looking at ways in which the astronomy for mental health flagship and the socioeconomic development through astronomy flagship can combine to become one big flagship, if you may say, where you can have astro tourism activities that link to astronomy for mental health or you have astronomy for mental health activities that link to astrotourism activities. And then also just looking into how people can start small businesses using astronomy as a, as an inspiration in terms of their business ideas. So that's what I'll be looking into this year.
[00:20:46] Speaker B: So you mentioned astro tourism. That's something that's been growing over the years. It's particularly important in Africa because of the wide open skies, dark skies away from the cities. So astro tourism really is about bringing people to places particularly for the dark skies.
That's a growing area that's getting some attention outside of astronomy itself, but in the tourism industry. I know that there have been places where there are safaris during the daytime, but what do they do at night? Well, if you're out in the get away from the cities where the animals are, you've got incredible skies. So how is that important in terms of development? Where do you see that going now that you're starting to work on that? And, and the bridge between mental health and astro tourism for developing small businesses? You know, how does that, how do those come together?
[00:21:48] Speaker C: I mean, if we look at the astro tourism aspect on its own, we trying to create resources that would allow people who live in rural areas. So our target audience is people who are under resourced and live in remote areas where they have very little resources. So the idea is to basically point out certain things that they can do that wouldn't require a lot of money on their side. So obviously like you said, we already have nature reserves that have daytime safaris and all they have to do is just incorporate the stargazing in the evening and they have a complete package. So how would then people in remote areas benefit from astro tourism? We then help them by creating resources that would allow them to be able to start their own astro tourism businesses. And then also one of the major projects at the oed. While one of the success stories of the OED funding was the astro stays, which basically gave people the idea that they can actually turn their own homes into BnBs. So when tourists or visitors come, they can make an generate an income by providing accommodation. And then in addition to that have additional activities. So, and then when we look at the mental health aspect of it, if you already have existing tourism businesses, the idea is to basically just come with the mental health activities or the Astronomy for Mental Health initiative and say, look to complement what you already offer in your existing tourism business, maybe you can incorporate some of these activities. So when someone actually goes to your venue or your business, they can also gain a certain aspect or an additional aspect, which is basically astronomy for the mental health. So not only do you go on holiday, but you go through a relaxing and wholesome holiday where you also just, you know, deal with certain issues that you might have had that you were, like, leaving home to go on vacation for.
[00:23:43] Speaker B: That's great. I mean, all these things are. Are tied together. But we have some photos that we intended to show here, and I want to get to those, so.
And I'm going to start with my favorite one, which is a picture of you. This is joyful. Being joyful and wearing some African accoutrements here. How did this picture come about? It's wonderful.
[00:24:08] Speaker C: Should this all not work out for me, I'm going to go into modeling.
I was at CERN one day just walking around, going about my day, when someone who is an amateur photographer walked up to me and said, oh, my goodness, you look like you'd make a great model for pictures. And I thought it was strange and it was a very weird request, but I'm always up for new adventures. So I was like, okay, let's take pictures of me. So, yeah, I took one of those pictures while I was at CERN in one of those buildings there. And it was just a weird coincidence, but it turned into a whole photo shoot where I was just smiling for so many pictures.
It was a very interesting experience for me.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: Fantastic. Yeah, that's wonderful. Here then, here is an important moment in your life. This is a great shot here. Tell us about this.
[00:25:04] Speaker C: Well, that was taken on the 8th of July, if I'm not mistaken. I believe I remember it was the 8th of July last year, 2023. It was my graduation day for my PhD. So with me are my mother and her two younger siblings, her two younger sisters. I mean, I think that image just basically captures what they've been for me throughout my postgraduate career, which is they've always been behind me, pushing me forward and just encouraging me to just get through my PhD. Yeah, it was. It was the most amazing moment, but I think they were much more prouder than I was excited, even though they didn't understand what was going on for the past 13 years of me being in university, this is something they've been looking forward to. So had I told them I'm not going to my graduation, I would probably not be sitting here right now because they would have murdered me.
But yeah, so that was a graduation day with my three mothers, I call them, because my mom and her sisters are all mothers to us. And yeah, they've just been a great source of support and.
[00:26:08] Speaker B: And you're all wearing yellow sneakers.
[00:26:11] Speaker C: Yes, we just wanted to stand out. Dzonga people are known for their interesting choice in colors. So the yellow sneakers is actually very subtle. Usually we have extremely colorful clothes. Like our shirts are very flowery with like 50 shades of bright colors. So those are very subtle colors.
[00:26:35] Speaker B: Okay with it. And that's conga culture. That's your, your.
Yeah, I don't think I can get it quite right.
[00:26:48] Speaker C: Yeah. Sheets on. Gone.
[00:26:51] Speaker B: And then we also have a really nice photo of you second from left and the rest of the team from the OAD at a recent meeting. I see Kevin in the suit looking non African because he was doing efficient business, which we'll have to say something about to him. And Kevin Govender is the director and has been since then. The creation of the OAD more than 10 years ago.
[00:27:26] Speaker C: Well, it was funded in 2011, so.
[00:27:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 13 years ago then.
[00:27:33] Speaker C: Yeah. They've celebrated the 10 year anniversary I.
[00:27:36] Speaker B: Visited for the first stakeholders meeting, maybe 2012. I'm not sure exactly, but very early on and we've watched it grow since then. Phenomenally. Good work. And I hope to have some of the others from the team here to talk about how astronomy is used for improving people's lives in so many different ways. The OAD is the prime example of this. And what was the meeting here then?
[00:28:05] Speaker C: So that meeting was Science Forum South Africa.
That was held in Pretoria last year in December. So in the picture there's actually colleagues from the OED as well as those from the South African Astronomical Observatory. So because we had exhibitions, we were located right next to them. And we just created this astronomy corner together with the South African Radio Astronomy Observatory where we just got people to come to our stand and we just told them all about the astronomy research that's being done in South Africa as well as the OED as well, in terms of not only do we do astronomy research, but then we also use this astronomy to better our society. So we had a lot of engagement with the community. A lot of people were quite shocked that astronomy can actually do more than just research and study, study in the night sky. So it was a very fun and engaging three day conference where we're just engaging with people about what we do at the oed. That specific picture, it was supposed to impress the minister because he was coming to visit. So we all decided to wear our African culture.
[00:29:11] Speaker B: That's great. Yeah, there is some, some good things there. And is that you're wearing a pretty colorful dress there.
[00:29:18] Speaker C: Yeah, well, like I said, Astsonga people are very colorful people. So anything colorful just draws my attention.
[00:29:29] Speaker B: It's interesting. The South African Astronomical Observatory is one of the major observatories in the world with one of the big biggest telescopes in the world. And there's a very long history of astronomy in South Africa, originally by Europeans coming down to South Africa and building observatories, but now all native.
And it's, it's a huge thing in this. South Africa is economically kind of a powerhouse in Sub Saharan Africa. But it's interesting that people still don't know how astronomy is used for something other than just gazing up at the night sky. And that's what we really want to show on this podcast and bring on people from around the world where astronomy is happening and being used to educate people, to improve lives, to build communities for development, like what the OAD is doing for mental health for so many different things. It is the most universal of all the sciences and most accessible. And that's what we're going to try to show people. So this has been really a terrific program highlighting the work that you and others at OAD are doing now. So what for the future, what do you see happening at oad, or for you in particular in the next few years? You think you're going to be going back into high energy physics or what do you think you're gonna do?
[00:31:04] Speaker C: That's a very difficult question.
I, I really don't think or I don't see myself going back into research.
So I don't know. It would probably be forward and onwards from the oad, but I'd like to stay for a couple of more years and just be part of this, this amazing work that they're doing. So if they, if they can't get rid of me, I'll like to stay as long as Kevin has been part of it.
[00:31:34] Speaker B: You're doing good work and a joy to have around, as we say, and I'm sure Kevin will be delighted to have you.
[00:31:44] Speaker C: Yeah, I know. I am actually looking forward to the, all of the podcasts you'll be doing. Sales probably go subscribe wherever it is that you post them, because I really am interested in what people are doing out there. It's. It's just being part of the OED has just started a whole new. Sparked a whole new interest for me in terms of what can we do with science for development? So this is just amazing that you started this podcast. Look forward to your future episodes.
[00:32:11] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. I've been doing this sort of thing for a very long time. I don't know if people can tell, but I'm quite a bit older than you. White hair here, maybe 50 years or so. And it's just people need to know this. People need to understand how much this can be used. And yeah, the reason for doing this podcast is really that there are people working in all of the countries. You're finding out about them and nobody knows about them. They don't have a yeah out of their own look there. So we want to give a voice to everybody. So it's not about us and what we're doing. It's about what everybody is doing there. And let's get it out there. So thanks so much for joining us today, Joyful. It's been a delight. I'll just say that. Use a different word this time. And you're. You're a great representative of the oad. You're one of the leaders and it's, it's really been wonderful. So thanks for joining us here.
[00:33:09] Speaker C: Thank you so much for having me. It's been lovely talking to you.
[00:33:15] Speaker A: This has been another episode of Big Impact Astronomy. I'm your host, Mike Simmons. Jacob Sager is our technical producer. Our audio engineer is Ali Pelfrey. Big Impact Astronomy is produced by Astronomy for Equity, bringing astronomy to unserved communities worldwide. This episode of Big Impact Astronomy was brought to you by Primalucha Labs. Prima Lucha Labs makes space exploration accessible for all and empowers communities worldwide through innovative educational astronomy solutions. Learn more about Astronomy for Equity, including how you can Support us at astro. The number4equity.org.
